your social network and dating script provider

top strawberries said on 12/10/2007 06:46 PM :

no luck installing it, Dan  

You can take a look/try if you want at my site....usual username/password for the backend.

top datemill said on 12/10/2007 07:37 PM :

It works now, I updated the package, there was a typo in one of the files.
I installed it on your site to test.

top strawberries said on 12/10/2007 07:48 PM :

thanks, Dan.

I will get a chance tonight to test the update more.

The updates look good on your site here.  I like the livehappening 'feel' given by the rss feed for latest comments.  

This is the type of thing that I had on an old music based website.  I had that type of feed down the right hand side, showing the last 8 comments on my blog.  And I had a second feed, showing the last 8 comments from my forums.

Tho in my case, the poster's name was shown, and the first x number (25 or so) of characters.  It worked really well.  Though it was a small site for friends, so there wasn't any strain on my DB.

I posted a blog last night in here, with a very long name.....to see how the rss feed on the left here, would cope with a long blog name.

top maverick said on 14/10/2007 07:38 PM :

after the update searches now show in gallery mode by default, how to I switch it back to list mode as the default?

top maverick said on 15/10/2007 01:52 AM :

also noticed there's now a means to remove friends and bookmarks, which is the same method as un-blocking a member, I'll have to include some instructions on the My Connections page so users will know that this feature exists, only way I knew about it was when I was going through the code.

Last edited by maverick on 2007-10-15 02:55 GMT

top maverick said on 15/10/2007 06:13 AM :

Online feature don't seem to be working properly since the upgrade. For example in "My Connections" both here on the demo site as well as on my site members in the friends list never show as being online.

top datemill said on 15/10/2007 11:19 AM :

after the update searches now show in gallery mode by default

Not true. You probably have a cookie set for gallery mode. Clear your cookies then try again.

Online feature don't seem to be working properly since the upgrade

The connections page might not display if a member is online or not, we'll check. However, it's not because of the upgrade.

top datemill said on 15/10/2007 02:14 PM :

We checked, it was a template problem. It's fixed now and you will receive the fix with the next update.

top strawberries said on 16/10/2007 04:29 PM :

When you do reckon the next update will be released, Dan?  Probably the final one?

top datemill said on 16/10/2007 04:54 PM :

2 more. One in 1-2 days with some changes to the payment gateways which I want you to test then the final one with all strings moved out of php scripts.

top maverick said on 16/10/2007 06:58 PM :

By testing the payment gateways, do you mean you want us to do an actual test purchase through PayPal and/or 2Checkout?

top datemill said on 16/10/2007 07:09 PM :

Yes, of course. You could make a $0.01 subscription for testing purposes or you could use the demo mode of the payment gateway you're testing. With paypal it is better to use a live $0.01 amount because the test mode requires a new account on developer.paypal.com but with 2checkout you can put the module in demo mode and pay with a fake card like 4111-1111-1111-1111. Will let you know the details in the email.

top maverick said on 16/10/2007 07:36 PM :

Only one problem for me, unfortunately I can't use either payment solution since they no longer allow dating sites. And PayPal I can't and won't use because several years ago I fell victim to their well known freezing people's accounts and funds issue without cause and reason, took me almost 6 months to get my money, which was several grand.

Now I won't even make a purchase through PayPal, if that's the only payment a site offers, I won't buy.

Last edited by maverick on 2007-10-16 16:38 GMT

top maverick said on 16/10/2007 07:49 PM :

Or are you just wanting us to make a dummy purchase through the Etano test site to see if it works ok?

top datemill said on 16/10/2007 07:53 PM :

I was hoping you could do it on your own site, within your own environment and setup. If not you maybe the rest of the testers.

top maverick said on 16/10/2007 08:08 PM :

I noticed you fixed the manual payments so it now gets added to the payment history Only it doesn't show the payment amount, would it be possible to add a field so the payment amount shows in the payment history as well? Even if it's not tied into your subscriptions and you have to manually enter the amount would fine. Also would be nice to have a delete and/or edit button to remove or edit a payment in the payment history in the event you make an mistake.

top johnboy said on 16/10/2007 11:41 PM :

I can't use either payment solution since they no longer allow dating sites.

If this is true, why have these options in place. There are other solutions, such as your local bank now excepts online transactions. I pretty sure thats the way I'm going to go, as I don't trust Paypal after some of the horror stories Ive heard and also its such a pain to of a system to use.

top maverick said on 17/10/2007 01:45 AM :

Hi Johnboy;

I'll be setting up a custom solution to accept payments and manually upgrading memberships.

I'll be using direct bank transfers the same as you plan on doing. Only one problem with bank transfers, it only works for customers within your own country which will limit some sites that cater to a more global market. I'm lucky as I have dual status in both Canada and the US, which are my main niche markets, so I can setup bank accounts to accept transfers from customers in both countries. I'll also be providing a few other payment options as well.

Wish I could use one of the payment gateways I use now for my software business, but they don't allow dating sites or membership sales, they are pretty  much just for selling software.

I guess I could use my own merchant account for accepting credit cards, but I don't like that idea for selling memberships as the risks of fraud and chargebacks are too high, which is the reason why 2checkout and PayPal won't allow dating sites anymore.

top johnboy said on 17/10/2007 04:19 AM :

95% of my customers are from within New Zealand, so I guess I'm pretty right using local banks.

Though a while back in the DSB forums there was talk of amalgamating all the DSB sites to use a joint database. I thought that was a fantastic idea and planned to have a separate international dating site. I haven't heard anymore about that idea, does anyone know if it may happen or not?

If it does, then I would need some other payment solution.........Geez decisions decisions our life is a never ending pile of decisions.

top traderjoe said on 18/10/2007 03:19 AM :

PayPal doesn't completely prohibit dating services, but they do require approval first:

http://www.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/ua/use/index_frame-outside

I want to use them since I've never had the experience of anything going sour with them yet and frankly they look like the best and most preferable turnkey option so far.  But...

Don't know anything about it, but what about Google?...

http://checkout.google.com/sell/?promo=sbs&utm_medium=et&utm_source=us-en-et-bizsol-0&utm_campaign=en&gsessionid=Xbk3vu5WL_U

Last edited by traderjoe on 2007-10-18 00:30 GMT

top maverick said on 18/10/2007 04:46 AM :

I'm fully aware of PayPal's policy that they don't totally prohibit dating sites, but this is the first step towards restricting them which means they could eventually totally ban dating sites, and unless you regularly check their use policy to make sure it doesn't all at once change, you'll find yourself all of sudden, with no prior warning, getting a notice they have froze your account and saying you can no longer use their payment services. This is what happened to me.

I used PayPal for several years without any problems and thought they were just great and all the horror stories I was hearing on the net must be isolated cases that are being over hyped and those people were probably crooks or breaking the rules. Well I found out the hard way it happens to even honest hard working people that try playing by the rules and it's more wide spread than I thought.

Maybe you'll be one of the lucky ones, but I wouldn't totally rely on them as your only means of accepting payments or you could one day find your site locked down from accepting payments having you desperately scrambling around trying to find a new payment gateway.

luckily PayPal was only a secondary payment option therefore my sales weren't disrupted.

As far as Google goes, make sure you carefully read their policies. Unless you meet certain criteria your monthly limit is normally $500. Also might want to look at their use policy.

At this time, Google Checkout is designed primarily for transactions involving tangible and digital goods (such as downloadable products). However, you may also process transactions for services, subscriptions, and donations (if your organization is 501c3 tax-exempt).

Last edited by maverick on 2007-10-18 01:54 GMT

top traderjoe said on 18/10/2007 06:26 AM :

I wonder if now it's mainly that they just don't want any dating sites that are not "mainstream" and that would not pass the same test it would take to air a typical regular network TV show in the US, i.e., #2 in the use policy?  After that, I guess the main issue would be what - chargebacks or cc fraud?

I have to admit, Maverick, even though I appreciate your contributions about the topic of payment going back to the DM forum as much as any, I have a hard time believing customers of exclusively "mainstream" types of Etano sites would be willing to get their bank account involved.  If there was something special, atypical, or "nonmainstream" about your site that people would normally drag themselves over broken glass and gravel for any day of the week, then yes, but "mainstream"?  I doubt most people would be comfortable with that right now. It seems that people usually just want things to be very easy, uncomplicated and "normal," and are still getting used to being willing to use credit cards online.  Then again, if I'm wrong about this, great, excellent - but right now...In fact, as a webmaster with so many things to be concerned about, I don't even want to deal with trying do the bank link thing or persuade people to try such an option assuming I could do it at all - I just want it to be  the "normal" thing people are used to and still getting used to, and uncomplicated, i.e., PayPal, credit card, etc.

Last edited by traderjoe on 2007-10-18 03:40 GMT

top guest said on 18/10/2007 07:21 AM :

My acccount was froze too. Last year dunno whats the problem.

top angkasa said on 18/10/2007 07:22 AM :

My acccount was frozen too. Last year dunno whats the problem.

top guest said on 18/10/2007 07:23 AM :

I guess some of the questions would be - what type of dating or other site were you publishing, and did PayPal even give you any reasons at all?

top traderjoe said on 18/10/2007 07:24 AM :

I guess some of the questions would be - what type of dating or other site were you publishing, and did PayPal even give you any reasons at all?

top maverick said on 18/10/2007 11:06 AM :

After that, I guess the main issue would be what - chargebacks or cc fraud?

Yes, this is the reason that's making dating sites high risk with many payment processors. Dating sites have become major targets in recent years.

My intention isn't to try and convince you or anyone else not to use PayPal, my purpose was just to inform about the potential problems one could run into and   make a recommendation that people shouldn't totally relying on PayPal as their only payment option, especially since PayPal has now made dating sites somewhat questionable.

If people are skeptical and think I'm maybe just anti-PayPal and therefore want to take my advice with a grain of salt, that's fine, I have no problem with that and I wish them luck and hope it works out ok for them, many people swear by PayPal and have had very few problems, unfortunately I just happen not to be one of them.

And yes PayPal gave me a reason, they changed their use policy which made the software I was selling somewhat borderline acceptable. I would have had no problems with this or any ill feelings towards PayPal if they would have handled it like professionals and gave me some sort of prior warning or heads up, but instead I just get a notice saying that my account and all of my funds were frozen. And NO, I wasn't selling anything illegal nor did I have history of charge backs, nothing but tons of happy customers and lots of sales. If you search the Interent, you'll find this a pretty A-typical scenario, many never get any reason at all from PayPal.

I have been selling these same software products through ClickBank for almost the last 10 years, and they are known for having some of strictest policies around as to what you can sell, so that says a lot right there.

On the topic of using bank transfers, I really don't want to get into any debates on this subject or even bother trying to convince or sell anyone on the idea, it was only suggested as an option for some. If this form of payment is something you really don't know much about and makes you uneasy, or feel it's not a viable option for your site or target audience, then it's probably not a solution for you.

Last edited by maverick on 2007-10-18 08:29 GMT

top datemill said on 18/10/2007 12:01 PM :

The reason for choosing Paypal and 2Checkout as the starting gateways was their wide availability (almost whole world for Paypal, even Romania hehehe and whole world for 2Checkout), the fact that Paypal might allow some dating sites and the fact that not all our customers will be selling dating memberships but maybe  stock photos, tshirts, etc while the membership is free. Or properties/houses if they will go with such a site.

Offline payments sounds like a good plan to me. This doesn't mean only bank transfers but also checks, western union and the likes.

And for those of you that want to use some other gateway just request and we'll try to implement it.

top maverick said on 18/10/2007 12:16 PM :

Offline payments sounds like a good plan to me. This doesn't mean only bank transfers but also checks, western union and the likes.

Exactly, the more options you can offer, the better. Online instant bank transfers are also starting to become available in some countries, such as Canada and UK.

top traderjoe said on 18/10/2007 06:11 PM :

That's definitely good advice about not relying on paypal only and keeping all your eggs in one basket.  I guess I could see people being willing to send a check or try to do a bank transfer for something atypical or unconventional, but it's the target audience for more mainstream conventional matchmaking or SN sites that I believe would balk and be leary, wanting just the normal cc or paypal-style route.  That would be especially true about sending a check.  That's definitely the audience I'm targeting at the moment.  Truth is, I want to be wrong about that, and I want to be convinced otherwise, but I live in one of the largest US metro areas and it doesn't look like most people are ready to really consider that for a "regular" matchmaking site.  In fact, it's often hard to even get people to do a copy and paste or type into the address bar, and you can forget about getting people to use the file manager on their computer to locate a file - abandon all hope.  After so many years of the pc and the Web, it's still this way unfortunately.  In fact, if I was a customer I probably wouldn't want anything other than cc or paypal-style, too, even though  there are a few things for which I do make money transfer payments, such as paying credit card bills or paypal itself.  It's all about what your audience is willing and able to handle, and I hope my perspective on this will soon be 100% obsolete if it isn't already.

If it's not too hard  or costly in time and money to try to implement bank links, maybe I'll try to have it as an extra option, though, since it seems like it could be very desirable if everyone was willing.  With what I'm planning, maybe a lot of people could become willing if they had to and you could convice them it was "safe."  I hope it would also not be a problem to implement subscription-style recurring membership charges, too.

Last edited by traderjoe on 2007-10-18 15:23 GMT

top datemill said on 18/10/2007 10:17 PM :

Recurring memberships are available with Paypal only. Right, that was another reason for choosing Paypal. No other payment gateway (that I know of) implements the recurring subscriptions as it should without having to store credit cards on your own server and implementing monthly rebilling scripts ourselves.

top johnboy said on 19/10/2007 12:12 AM :

Heres my 2 cents worth :-)
I have several options
1. Credit card brings in about 60% of my payments, I don't use a gateway, just a form on a secure server, and I manually process the cards at the bank.
2. Online banking - I have my bank account number on the site for members to transfer funds online, this would be used by 30% of my paying members.
3. Post a Cheque, only about 10% use this option and occassionally members even send CASH in the envelope.

In the 2 years I have done it this way I have only ever had 2 probs.
1. Fraudalent credit card and the bank took the money back off me.
2. Not enough funds on the card, I wrote to them and they sent me cash in the mail.

So overall I have been very lucky I guess (touch wood).

When my new etano site is setup, I will use those methods again, except I will replace my CC system with a direct link to the banks CC processors. That involves some PHP scripting that I will request Dan to do as a paid job.

top maverick said on 19/10/2007 12:44 AM :

johnboy;

What you're doing is a good approach, a lot of people don't have credit cards or are uneasy about using them online. People like alternatives and options, which also makes you appear more professional and genuine in caring about your customers needs and security. Customer service has to be the main focus of every business and should be the number one thing you are selling, even more so than the actual product you're selling.

top johnboy said on 19/10/2007 01:55 AM :

YEP Customer service
Thats the main reason I am staying with Dan and not even considering other options. When I find something good I stick with it.

top traderjoe said on 19/10/2007 04:26 AM :

2. Online banking - I have my bank account number on the site for members to transfer funds online, this would be used by 30% of my paying members.

How is this done?  I don't recall ever encountering an option like that, unless you're talking about the kind of wire transfers that require a person to make a trip to their bank or credit union, fill out the form with a rep and pay the fee, then wait for everything to get done.  I've done that myself with one very well known website, but it sounds like you're talking about a quick smooth 100% online transaction.  ACH or something?  Also, how do you get notified a payment was made so that you can take care of the customers in a timely way instead of them having to wait for you to find out?

Last edited by traderjoe on 2007-10-19 01:32 GMT

top angkasa said on 19/10/2007 05:51 AM :

Hi, i have spoken to a phone line company representative in Singapore. when the new etano is up i will tie up with a phone line company. Which then i will be given a number such as 1900-2221111. Lets say i charge the members $5 a month. When they call that numbers automatically they will be charged $5 a call and their membership will be renewed automatically. They will program everthing for me. They charge me 17% on every transsaction i made. What do you guys think about this method? Do you have this kind of service in your country?

top datemill said on 19/10/2007 09:37 AM :

Angkasa: that is the best anti-fraud method that I know of. They will never be able to say that they called your number by mistake or someone else stolen their phone and called
We have something similar here only it is based on SMS instead of phone call.

top maverick said on 19/10/2007 10:21 AM :

CCBill has a such a plan for phone billing subscriptions. They charge 20-25% but there's also potential issues with noncollectables and chargebacks etc, therefore they also have a revolving 10% hold back reserve, too many different carriers here in North America with different rules.

golive mobile also offers SMS payments, but the carrier takes half the split of the billing amount.

Wish this solution was as simple and straightforward here as it seems to be in other parts of the world, here phone billing used to be ok, but it's gotten too complicated here.

top johnboy said on 20/10/2007 12:07 AM :

How is this done?  I don't recall ever encountering an option like that,

The customer gets my bank account number off my website, and goes to their bank account via internet banking and makes a bill payment into my  account.

Once they have done that, they send me an email, and I give them their gold membership.

top traderjoe said on 20/10/2007 09:31 AM :

Thanks Johnboy.  That's a good extra option indeed.

Now that Etano is much closer to being released, there is another top priority topic that I've been thinking and doing some research online about lately - how and where to host the site.  And it looks like I may have just made a discovery that could be just the thing the doctor ordered for Dan and the team, and us who need to host the script.

For those of us who have also used the DM forum, it appears to be a settled matter that Go Daddy is not an option, especially because of cron jobs.  But guess what?  They've revised their hosting plans, and now cron jobs are included in shared Linux hosting for those of us not ready to jump into dedicated servers, also excellent bandwidth and storage.  You can see details by scrolling down the page and clicking the Compare Plan - Linux tab at http://www.godaddy.com/gdshop/hosting/shared.asp?se=%2B&ci=260#tabs

So, if one of these plans works well with Etano, that's good for Dan and the DM team, too, since it could mean there's an excellent hosting option already in sight, which I believe represents an encouragement to buy Etano and removes one very big thing to have to think about.  But wait - there's more:  

Perhaps Etano can be integrated into whatever payment processing and merchant services Go Daddy might offer as well that are compatible, if any.

Finally, if Dan can make a deal with Go Daddy for Etano to be offered at a discount or something to Go Daddy customers along with all the other extra's available through the hosting services, perhaps that could lead to a flow of revenue for Etano sales beyond what you ever would have thought possible.  Just a thought for now, but not a bad thought I think.

So, the first question is, how does it look?  Does it look like the revised Go Daddy Linux hosting plans are now an excellent option for hosting Etano?

Last edited by traderjoe on 2007-10-20 06:44 GMT

top datemill said on 20/10/2007 11:04 AM :

Let me guess: you are the owner of godaddy and want some customers
The linux plans look ok.

top traderjoe said on 20/10/2007 09:56 PM :

lol.

The linux plans look ok.

Some of the best news I've had all week.

top johnboy said on 21/10/2007 01:47 PM :

They do look good pricewise, but I am always dubious about really cheap deals, whats the catch? and will ETANO run Ok on GoDaddy now?..... and are you the owner of godaddy?

top maverick said on 21/10/2007 09:26 PM :

I'm with you Johnboy, their prices almost seem too good to be true, and if something looks too good to be true, it usually is!

At that price they're probably hosting a hundred or possibly even several hundred sites on the same server, all sharing the resources. Most people just look at bandwidth, these days hosts can smack a lot of bandwidth on a server pretty cheap, the problem usually isn't so much the bandwidth, it's sharing other resources such as CPU and ram and if you start trying to run anything like chatroom software and/or an IM in combination with a lot of database requests you're potentially running risks of spiking or hogging these resources at peak times and apt to get shut down.

I normally recommend to anyone opening a site that's a business or even a speculatory business to stay clear of huge hosts offering real cheap hosting as they tend to oversell and not be as reliable.

I would maybe recommend Godaddy to those just starting out as a webmaster and putting up their first site that's just for fun or a hobby, or maybe even just for a basic business brochure type site, but never for a complex e-commerce type site that's running multiple scripts and/or depending on potentially large databases, etc.

I'd recommend spending some time at webhostingtalk.com forums and see what others are offering and recommending in the price ranges you're seeking, they are one of the largest hosting forums around, I've been using them for years to research hosts. Personally I wouldn't even look at anything under $20 a month to run a dating  or SN type site.



Last edited by maverick on 2007-10-21 18:48 GMT

top traderjoe said on 22/10/2007 07:48 AM :

It would not surprise me if Go Daddy has over five million customers and I've only been one of them.  I can definitely say I don't believe anything they ever offer or would offer is "too good to be true."  I have complete confidence in them that they know exactly what they're doing with this offering, that it is most probably much better than other hosting providers charging much more for the same or similar service specs, and that one could either upgrade or move to a dedicated server if that became necessary instead of being shut down for normal activities that do not involve any kind of misconduct.  If I was a reseller I would post my own reseller link and encourage everyone to go there, but since I'm not I am willing to share the word about Go Daddy because anything that benefits Etano customers can benefit the people behind Etano, which can then benefit all of us.  If people see that they don't have to look too hard for a good starting option for hosting and an economical option already exists with the largest registrar in the world, that adds to the incentive to invest in Etano and give it a try, which can help the incentive for Dan and the Team to continually provide a script which not only rocks, but rolls, too.  Have I made my point yet?  Just stop me when it's time.

Last edited by traderjoe on 2007-10-22 04:57 GMT

top maverick said on 22/10/2007 05:19 PM :

it is most probably much better than other hosting providers charging much more for the same or similar service specs

Cheaper than others yes, better? that's really debatable. It's like comparing apples to oranges. There's far more to it than just price and specs when it comes to web hosting, it's what you're getting for your buck, efficiently managed servers and support is of the utmost importance if your running a business. If they have 5 million customers I seriously doubt they have the support infrastructure in place to provide efficient support. Godaddy is in the bulk supply business, just like most other large conglomerates such as PayPal and AOL, etc etc, if they loose customers here and there it's really no big deal to them.

5 million customers? I'd venture to say far more than that, but the vast majority of those are hosting domains which isn't surprising they host more domains than anyone in the world because their cheap bulk prices are very attractive to domain squatters and speculators, and they do a reasonably good job at domain hosting as this is their specialty.

Godaddy might be fine as a starter host for basic websites and maybe an ok choice for Etano users that are just starting out that are on a real limited budget and are just speculating until they can get their site off the ground, but for a serious business, overall I'll guarantee Godaddy doesn't come close to being the best choice for hosting your web site or even for having a dedicated server.

Also, those that are concerned about google SEO's may want to google for "Godaddy Blocking Google Bots". Since I have no personal experiences with this, I'll just leave this for people to research and draw their own conclusions.

Also make sure you read the fine print as Godaddy (as well as most cheap hosting plan providers) have restrictions on the number of consecutive database connections. This shouldn't get your site shut down or anything, some of your visitors will just get cut off. If I'm not mistaken it's something like Economy=50, Deluxe=100 and Premium=150, which I think  is actually fair for the price they are charging and may be suffice for some sites just starting out.

Again, Godaddy might be an ok choice for those just starting out with their Etano sites, my main point here is just to inform people to make sure they throughly do their homework and research when selecting a host and make sure it fits your needs as well as your budget as it's not a fun task having to move your site to another host.

One final bit of advice, it's also not good business practice to host your domain and your website with the same service, there's too much potential for conflict of interest. My advice is to keep the two separate and find a company that specializes in domain hosting and does it well, and the same goes for web hosting.

One possible alternative is Dan having his own dedicated servers and offer some starter hosting plans for Etano customers just starting out, although not sure if he wants the headaches or it's something he really wants to get involved with, I know I wouldn't

Last edited by maverick on 2007-10-22 14:23 GMT

top datemill said on 22/10/2007 05:31 PM :

One possible alternative is Dan having his own dedicated servers and offer some starter hosting plans for Etano customers just starting out, although not sure if he wants the headaches or it's something he really wants to get involved with, I know I wouldn't

Indeed, this is something we might do when I'll have the time to study the offers and come up with some numbers. It would be good for us not because of some extra money (which would probably go to dedicated hosting support) but for the chance of monitoring the server load and finding and fixing possible bottlenecks before they become major.

top traderjoe said on 23/10/2007 07:03 AM :

Well, I guess this is the main fine print for Go Daddy hosting (non-dedicated server):

http://www.godaddy.com/gdshop/legal_agreements/show_doc.asp?se=%2B&pageid=HOSTING%5FSA

Especially section # 2.

While I didn't find anything about database connections, there is something about having to get permission for going beyond a standard SMTP relay limit, but I'm not all that concerned about bulk emailing really.  Not now anyway.

Here's the complete legal links page with another link for dedicated server hosting:

http://www.godaddy.com/gdshop/agreements.asp?se=%2B&ci=8924

Their support is generally excellent, although I have never used their hosting.  Their support is probably among the reasons why they've become the largest registrar, as there are plenty of inexpensive options out there, including some that can be cheaper for domain registrations.

I doubt very much that Go Daddy blocks the Google bot.  In searching this on Google, it seems to be an old rumor going back a number of years.  I've even found a thread where some confirm getting crawled, and another posts what appears to be a response to this from Go Daddy.

It would be nice if others were posting other credible options with reasons why Etano could work well there.

What about HostGator?  You could get a reseller account with 24 GB / 250 GB that would enable you to use Etano and also host any other domains you have.

http://www.hostgator.com/resellers.shtml

I'm not ready to jump into dedicated servers, but I did notice that AIT had the best pricing that I've seen:

http://www.ait.com/web-hosting/

But there's no way I'm going to start out with any DDS option anywhere, not unless it was amazingly cheap.

Who's got real, credible recommendations that include why Etano would be able to run well with them?

So, originally I didn't have any confidence in anything mentioned on the DM forum, but now I've decided to take a closer look at least.  Let me guess - is VPS the best way to go if you're not on a dedicated server?

Ok, in looking further, it appears that Go Daddy has "Virtual Dedicated Server" plans, but as you can see, they are not just trying to offer the cheapest prices compared to so-called "VPS" providers.

http://www.godaddy.com/gdshop/hosting/virtual.asp?se=%2B&ci=9013&display=virtual

Strawberries, any thoughts or options to share?  Haven't heard from you in a while.

Last edited by traderjoe on 2007-10-23 05:19 GMT

top traderjoe said on 23/10/2007 08:28 AM :

Nice little wikipedia article on vps: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vps

top maverick said on 23/10/2007 09:38 AM :

Unfortunately trying to find a good reliable host that meets your needs and budget can be a frustrating endevour. I can't recommend any real cheap hosting options as I've had my own dedicated for many years now. I can't personally vouch   for Hostgator but they are very popular and recommended a lot in various webhosting forums. VPS is probably the next best thing to having a semi-dedicated server as they are usually limited to a small number of users and therefore they have fewer limits and restrictions, it's also a good learning step before jumping into a dedicated server. Real cheap hosting can have hundreds of sites on them which is why they have to put such strict restrictions and limits on them.

I spent 2 or 3 years jumping from host to host, which was probably an average of every 6 months. I finally found a home and have had my dedicated server with these guys now for 5 years or more http://www.beachcomber-creations.com/ they   definitely aren't the cheapest around but it would take a team of wild horses to drag me to another hosting company, their server management and support is outstanding, I've hardly ever had to use their support (which alone says a lot) but the occasions that I have, response was always fast, usually within a couple hours.

My best advice is to put together some specs what your running and need and post it at the webhostingtalk.com forums, won't be long and you'll get lots of recommendations, all your top webmasters, resellers and host companies hang out there. It's where I found out about the beachcomber almost 6 years ago. Mark McGowan gave me a good deal back then, my own dedicated server for a $100 a month and I still pay the same price for it to this day, and over the years he's added more bandwidth than I know what to do with plus any hardware upgrades when needed.

top strawberries said on 24/10/2007 04:59 PM :

Joe, apologies, I haven't been following the whole discussion.  

But just to add my two cents. I did extensive research at the start of the year, regarding good hosting.  There were two names that kept being mentioned, on a consistent basis, at the top of folks recommendations.  Hostgator and a second name, which I cannot recall just now.  

I have all my sites now on hostgator.  And from all my experiences to date, I'd highly recommend them.

Regarding godaddy, I register all my domain names through them.  But I wouldn't use them for commercial website hosting.  I don't have any experience of their hosting services, but I just can't imagine that they'd be anything special. PLUS, i don't like the idea of having my domains registered with them, and also being hosted on their servers too.  I'm just cautious that way - maybe overly cautious.

top johnboy said on 25/10/2007 02:14 AM :

Shheesh I just found out Im gonna have my first baby at 50, in Feb, Im in shock but happy about it.

top traderjoe said on 25/10/2007 04:33 AM :

Congrats Johnboy!  Boy or girl?

Maverick - thanks again.  Took a look at beachcomber and it did look interesting.  Will need to take a closer look, too.

Strawberries - you must have one of the reseller plans, right, since you've mentioned having hosting limitations to consider in the past?  The best shared plan has only 1 GB of space, which I can't see lasting long running even only one active Etano site.  They don't appear to have any VPS service.

Last edited by traderjoe on 2007-10-25 01:40 GMT

top traderjoe said on 25/10/2007 05:04 AM :

Very interesting - check this out:

http://www.hostgator.com/merchants.shtml

Because of the 3rd party market slowly being shut down by Visa and MasterCard we don't recommend a 2checkout account nor any other 3rd party merchant provider out there besides paypal.

top johnboy said on 25/10/2007 05:19 AM :

Its going to be a Boy

I have my beta testing etano site hosted on beachcomber, and so far I have found it really good. The only drawback it has, is it won't let me show the watermark on the photos and wont display the funny letters (The thing to stop bots)when joining up. Other than that I have no complaints, plus its really easy to do stuff I couldnt do before on a previous server I rented. Its great for beginners and seems reliable so far.

top maverick said on 25/10/2007 06:23 AM :

Hey Johnboy CONGRATS!!!!

The watermark and captcha uses the GD or GD2  library which is a PHP module which should be installed as it's also used to resize your photos to create the thumbs. This wasn't included on my server but I have dedicated and recompiled the PHP on my server with GD library modules so it work. You must be missing something, either ask Dan to a have a look or ask Beachcomber support to make sure the proper models are installed on the server.

top maverick said on 25/10/2007 07:07 AM :

3rd party market slowly being shut down by Visa and MasterCard

Yes over the last 5 years or so Visa has been trying to put everyone out of business, they want complete control over the Internet payment processing gateways as well as what people will be allowed to purchase and from whom. Nothing but corporate GREED GREED.

There's a company in Canada that developed a payment processing gateway system about 4 years ago where they link to the banks so people can make online purchases via instant bank transfers, all the major Banks in Canada are tied into the system because it's almost a 100% fraud proof way of making online payments, for both seller and buyers. Visa took them to court in Canada to try and stop them, the courts told Visa NO WAY because they were just trying to prevent fair competition which breaks anti-trust laws. Many of the major banks in the US started to implement it as well but Visa wanted to stop them as well so Bush wrote something in our Patriot Act 2 that stopped it, so it's now on hold in the US.

UK has now implemented the system and all of China's major banks are pilot testing it as we speak. Visa hates this because they see it's potential and it's catching on and they will eventually lose a major chunk of the online payments. But for some reason Visa has some power over the Govt here, the rest of the world won't allow Visa to bully other payment gateways and hinder free enterprise as much because they take anti-trust laws more serious.

This is one reason I'm working on implementing alternative payment methods such as bank transfers for my site. I'm sick of Visa having a strangle hold on me and not doing anything to protect merchants from fraud and chargebacks, and it's only because they make billions a year off it, and who suffers from fraud, NOT Visa or the card holders, only the small little merchants trying to make living, they not only have to refund all the money, but also pay penalties on top of it. Even the banks don't like this because they are often the ones who get stuck doing the dirty work for Visa and why they are now encouraging people to use bank transfers and why in many parts of the world the banks are starting to test the bank transfer gateway system, just makes for good business for banks, it's paperless, easy to manage and increases cash flow in and out of the banks rather than just credit notes.

Ok I'm done ranting about the establishment now, maybe it's because I grew up in 60's ... LOL

top maverick said on 25/10/2007 07:11 AM :

Maybe you'll have to change you name from JohnBoy to PapaJohn ... LOL

top johnboy said on 25/10/2007 10:26 AM :

Lol@papajohn

top datemill said on 25/10/2007 02:34 PM :

The watermark and captcha are using the Freetype module for the GD2 module for php
Sometime in the future we will remove this dependency but for now, if you want to write any kind of text in images, your php must have support for this.

PapaJohnBoy - congrats, you're going to embark in the ride of your life
Don't forget to send us photos when the time comes.

Last edited by dragon on 2007-10-25 11:35 GMT

top maverick said on 25/10/2007 06:24 PM :

traderjoe

I tend not to spend much time looking at cheap hosting plans, but since you brought this up I've spent a bit of time looking into some of the various plans being offered and mentioned here that are under $20 per month. The bottom line is you're not going to get much for that price, there's going to be limitations and pros and cons with all cheap plans, and you have to try and weed through them to try and determine which ones will run Etano as a "starter" site, and in fairness to all the hosts offering cheap plans they have to put limits and restrictions as they are trying to make money too and if they don't, people will abuse the service.

After browsing around I decided to focus on Hostgator and Beachcomber and compare the plans being offered for $15 a month. The reason being is IMO, both companies have good reputations in hosting forums around the net and are very similar in features and should run Etano without too many problems. The main difference of any real significant importance for an Etano user is in their Bandwidth and space. Hostgator only offers 1gb of space but they offer so called unlimited bandwidth, which is fairly easy to do with only 1 GB of space as this would get used up fast if trying to host loads of photos, videos and MP3's etc. Whereas Beachcomber offers 3gb of space which is plenty of space for an Etano "starter" site, however they only offer 100gb of monthly bandwidth which isn't a ton and probably won't handle thousands of members, but shouldn't be a problem handling a thousand or possibly up to a couple thousand members as long as you don't add things like your own chatroom software and extras like that.

So you just have to decide which one you feel will best suit your needs in getting started.

You can look all over the net and you're going to have a real hard time finding any better hosts offering plans under $20 than this for hosting an Etano "starter" site, remember you're just looking for something cheap to get started with and you can always upgrade as your site grows. Nobody wants to spend anymore than need be when just starting out and not sure how long or if they're site will even take off where it's making them money.

Last edited by maverick on 2007-10-25 15:25 GMT

top maverick said on 25/10/2007 06:35 PM :

papajohn

When looking into the plans I mentioned above, I noticed Beachcomber does include the GD library but they probably didn't include the Freetype module which if I'm not mistaken is separate module you have to select when compiling PHP. Just ask them if it's possible they could add the Freetype module so you can use the captcha features in your program for security.

top datemill said on 25/10/2007 07:52 PM :

Mav, either you or the host are making a confusion: bandwidth is the width of the band which translates in the speed you get (56kbps, 512kbps, 1Mbps, T1, etc).
Traffic (as in "a 2Gb / mo traffic" is the correct term for the quantity of transfer you're allowed per month. If the bandwidth is small you can't do too much traffic.
For example on a dialup line, even if you download non-stop all month long you won't manage to download more than a few gigabytes.

I assume that hostgator actually means "unlimited traffic" when they say "unlimited bandwidth".
If hostgator offers a fast enough access to the site (bandwidth) it would be worth  to stay with them because of the unlimited traffic allowed. You could buy some more space if needed but I think that 1 gb is enough to get you started.

On the other side, 100Gb of traffic per month is barely enough. On the datemill server we are doing 240Gb+ /mo with a few sites, none of them with too much traffic.

top maverick said on 25/10/2007 10:17 PM :

Yes Dan you are correct about the technical term and use of bandwidth.

In website hosting though, the term bandwidth is usually metaphorically used, and often loosely used to describe the amount of data that can be transferred to or from the website or server, in other words "Monthly Data Transfer".

On my dedicated server I run several sites which don't get a lot of traffic either, one site averages about 800-1000 visitors a day and it has a rather large product gallery with each gallery page being 100 - 200kb's each and product downloads ranging from 8-40mb. I don't keep close tabs on it but the most bandwidth I've seen used on my server in a month is 100GB or so, could have been double that amount a few times, I don't really know for sure as I got either 1500gb or 2000gb available so I don't bother checking it very often, only notice it occasionally when in the server admin.

Either way no matter who you choose, can't expect to run a very large active site for $15 or $20 a month, that's just not realistic expectations. Most cheap plans are meant for just hosting small sites or starter e-commerce sites that get a relatively small amount of traffic.

All I can say is I'm sure glad I have my own server so I don't have to worry about shopping around for cheap plans, been there and done that years ago and it's not fun.

Hope my new Etano site will eventually be using 10,000GB of bandwidth

Last edited by maverick on 2007-10-25 19:29 GMT

top traderjoe said on 26/10/2007 03:32 AM :

This looks interesting, much more than the plans at spry.com (these are VPS plans at WestHost):

http://www.westhost.com/package-compare.html

WestHost was also mentioned favorably in the DM forum in...November 2005...:

http://forum.datemill.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=e3d3f625d3e40d9e5613e59ef2fa9d15&board=27.0

Last edited by traderjoe on 2007-10-26 00:46 GMT

top traderjoe said on 26/10/2007 04:51 AM :

Hmm...I wonder if this is so bad:

While a WestHost VPS can not be considered the same as a root access VPS, there are many advantages to our platform over traditional shared web hosting.

It's the last sentence here:
http://www.westhost.com/vps-web-hosting.html

I guess that must have something to do with the attractive pricing.

top traderjoe said on 26/10/2007 05:06 AM :

Thanks for the suggestion about wht, Maverick.

VPS forum

top traderjoe said on 26/10/2007 05:15 AM :

PapaJohn, breastfeeding is critical:

Breastfeeding's the best formula for you, your baby

Last edited by traderjoe on 2007-10-26 02:18 GMT

top johnboy said on 26/10/2007 07:48 AM :

Don't forget to send us photos when the time comes.

I already have a photo from the scan yesterday.
http://www.dunedin-direct.co.nz/junioradmin.jpg
He looks a bit like an alien at the moment, but he has my nose.


Hey Joe, YEP definitely Breastfeeding.

To Mav - Thanks for the advice about the captcha thingy, when I comeback to earth I will look into it.

Last edited by johnboy on 2007-10-26 04:51 GMT

top strawberries said on 27/10/2007 11:41 PM :

congrats Johnboy on the great news!  Hope everything goes well.

top johnboy said on 28/10/2007 08:11 AM :

THANKS Strawberries

Hey I think we beat the old record for most posts on a blog.

top johnboy said on 29/10/2007 06:15 AM :

All's quiet before the storm

top datemill said on 29/10/2007 12:43 PM :

Yeah, I'm just wondering how are we going to send the testers the last update: as an update or the full package?
Because all files are changed
Tough call...I'm going to think about it for 2 more days

top strawberries said on 29/10/2007 11:04 PM :

JohnBoy - yes, looks like a record has been set in this thread!

Dragon - script complete?  Been a long road.  And the last month or so has been difficult.  I'll certainly be glad to see it rolled out.

Last edited by strawberries on 2007-10-29 20:06 GMT

top strawberries said on 30/10/2007 04:38 PM :

PS - for my main site, an update is preferable.

But for my second site, I'd prefer to have the full package.

Not to be difficult!  

top datemill said on 30/10/2007 05:48 PM :

Unfortunately you won't be able to update.
No problem with the skins, nothing was changed there but because we extracted the strings from php files, the profile field values you have will overlap with the new strings.
You will have to install fresh, re-create the profile fields and copy your current skin over the default one.

top strawberries said on 30/10/2007 05:58 PM :

np....tho I'm gonna have to take loads of screenshots, to enable me to recall all my fields/values, and ideas.

will this be the final version, Dan, and will it be released this week?

top datemill said on 30/10/2007 06:49 PM :

Yes, version 1.0 and it will probably be released on Nov 1st or Nov 2nd latest.
Preferably on 1st cause it's my birthday and it would make a nice present

top maverick said on 31/10/2007 08:50 PM :

What about backing up database and then restoring the values again, such as profile fields, categories and country/city/state??

Even if just backed up and restored specific sections?

Not worried about member profiles so much, they are just a handful of test members anyway.

top datemill said on 31/10/2007 10:29 PM :

I'll let you know what can be restored and what not by email when I'll email the testers.

top johnboy said on 01/11/2007 04:28 AM :

Happy Birthday Dan, it's already the 1st here in New Zealand.

top maverick said on 01/11/2007 05:28 AM :

Happy Birthday Dan!

top strawberries said on 01/11/2007 05:43 AM :

Johnboy and Maverick beat me to it (I was watching the clock here)!

Happy Birthday Dan!

top traderjoe said on 01/11/2007 06:38 AM :

Happy Birthday Dan!